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You are doing a great job with the tests. No need to check anything but the pH in the tapwater.

It looks like your pH really is between 6.8 and 7.2 - perhaps closer to 6.8.

6.8 is a fine pH so there is no need to worry about it at all. (My tapwater pH is sometimes 5.2 and that low is definitely a problem . . . 6.8 is quite good actually.)

I would really like to see the nitrates closer to zero in the goldie tank just because of the ring around the eye. If you are up to it tomorrow, you can do a partial change and then retest to see if they nitrates are closer to zero.

It could very well be as you suggested so the bacterial colony has multiplied enough now to eat all the fish wastes (in case the other product were in some way "helping" but actually interferring with the bacteria's eating but that is just a guess at this point).

Do keep monintoring the ammonia and nitrites in the tanks just to be sure everything stays stable in the next while.

t

I am so sorry to hear that! R.I.P. little neons.

Neons do tend to be more sensitive (and do better in lower pH) but it is really a serious matter if they die right after a waterchange. That means there is something going wrong in the change. The following is a long post so you can see my logic but I have put some suggestions at the very end that should be easy to follow. (A few questions are embedded in the post for you to answer so don't miss them.)

* How much of a water change did you do? (This is quite important as it will give us a clue . . . I am not sure you can know for certain, though, with the method you are using.)

I would suggest that you remove water first, then put water in afterwards so you can really judge carefully how much is being changed.

* How much Prime did you add and when did you add it?

Since it is not temperature, let's explore the other things:

1. Heavy metals in water.
2. Chlorine or chloramines in water.
3. pH difference.
4. Other toxins in water.

We can't do anything about toxins in the water (4) so if we fix the first three and fish still die then we have a bit of an issue.

* Do you drink the water?

* It is city tapwater, right? (Not well water.)

We can prevent heavy metals and chlorine/chloramine problems (1 and 2) by using Prime.

However, it could be that the levels in your water are so high the fish die before the Prime can detoxify them. Prime is fast but it is possible.

Another issue is the pH. First, 6.8 or even 6.6 is still fine as long as it stablizes there (we shall see and if it doesn't we can figure things out). However, the problem is that your tapwater is 7.6 but it is really more like 6.8. That means if you do a big change then the fish are going from 6.6 to 7.6 in one step. It is recommended to try and change only 0.2 pH per day so you can see that is a bit too big a difference . . .

One solution might be to let treated water sit out for 2 days then use it. That would be a bit of a hassle but the pH would be closer and the chlorine/chloramines and heavy metals would be treated.

Right now I can suggest the following:

- Take out water first, then refill, when doing a change.
- Only do 25% changes for right now until we get everything figured out. That means the pH swing will be less and if there are high levels of chlorine/chloramines and/or heavy metals then they will also be less due to dilution.
- Try to keep the nitrates (and therefore organics) close to zero but you will need to do a series of spaced-out, smaller changes (not a big one) to do this. We want a lower baseline so the nitrates only get to 10 highest right before a change.
- We need to check the amount of Prime you are using.
- Does your local fishstore have any loose dolomite rock you can add to your gravel in a mesh filter bag (for easy removal). Usually dolomite is chalky looking and in bigger chunks. Or you could use coral but please put it in a mesh filter bag for easy removal if we find the pH rises. (Hagen makes mesh filter bags . . . or you could use a soap-free nylon . . . I prefer the mesh bags for ease of use.)

We can consider using something to stablize the pH but first I would like to get the nitrates lower so we know how the water pH holds up without too many organics in there.

t

P.S. I use "pH Stable" to bring up my pH. It is easy to target a specific pH, doesn't contain phosphates, and is more stable than baking soda. Since I do very large waterchanges (people don't try that at home - large changes can be a problem as seen in this thread) I can't use mechanical things like coral because I need to bring up the pH right away as you can understand.

It is difficult when a creature dies and you wonder if you could have prevented it. I can understand. The thing is that if your husband, or someone else, was taking care of the tank and didn't do the research you are doing then I would make a pretty big bet that the fish would also have problems too. (I could give some examples of what happens with under cared-for tanks, etc.)

You can't overlearn that is for sure because once you get in the swing of things you start to be able to pick out the information on the various sites that is the same . . . I am sure you already have experienced that you get an eye for what looks like quality info and what might be suspicious based on your own developing skillset.

You can't think of everything and so something like not doing a huge change with continuous changing is one of the learning steps we all go through. Some people actually can do large changes like that and everything is okay but the potential for problems is there. Since you had a problem, then that is one of the first things we need to change.

The reason I don't like the nitrates to be at 10 in your tank (although technically it is considered acceptable in many circles) is because of the ring around your goldfish's eye. That can be due to water quality. So, we want to get the water nitrates (and all the other things that are likely also higher) down to close to zero at a waterchange . . . then it will rise a bit during the week.

I think it is possible that the EasyBalance had some stabilizing products in it . . . so I looked. Yuppers. Quoted from the Tetra website:

• Carbonate Hardness Additive - The appropriate amount of carbonate hardness is added to the aquarium water compensating for KH losses, which occur as a result of nitrification.
• pH Stabilization - Stabilizes the pH value on a sufficiently high level, preventing a drop to biologically harmful levels (pH crash) and produces a certain amount of CO2 preventing excessive pH values.

Now, we should be able to do the same thing by adding our own carbonate hardness in the form of coral or dolomite. Cheaper in the long-run and it adds less chemicals to the water (Chemicals: If not needed, don't use them = my motto).

If your local store has either coral or dolomite in small quantities, feel free to try either of them. You might want to try the dolomite as it will raise things less quickly so you don't have to check the pH as often to be safe. Coral also works but just be prepared to check the pH more frequently to see if it goes too high. If you start with the dolomite you can always switch up to the more calcium-rich coral later if it doesn't work and your pH sinks.

That being said: There is the possibility that something in the EasyBalance was actually helping with your water issue. It could be the fact that it kept the pH close to the tap pH meant as little pH shock as possible?

t

Yes, I agree. I would also really like to know the exact reason for the deaths. We might be able to narrow it down by correcting the things I mentioned and if there were more deaths then it would likely be a toxin in the water (let's hope that scenario never happens *knock on wood*). It is hard to pinpoint which of the other possible causes might have been a problem without risk to the fish . . . better to correct any grey areas than to experiment with leaving them as problems in order to solve the puzzle, tempting though it might be.

The only time we are really glad to see nitrates is when the tank is just finishing the cycle . . . the nitrates showing up after zeroing the ammonia and nitrites means the cycle is done so it is always joyful to see the nitrates show up in that case.

However, overall it is better to have as low nitrates as possible because they are a toxin to the fish just as they are a toxin to humans (for example, pregnant women are warned not to drink tapwater that has elevated nitrates).

So, if a tank can have almost zero nitrates it is a good thing. My big tank usually has nitrates just barely showing above zero as long as I keep up with the regular weekly changes and don't overfeed.

Ring around the eye is most often popeye which usually subsides when water quality is improved to pristine levels. That means very low nitrates (and low levels of everything else that the fish excrete and is not measured as well as other decaying food and things etc.) I would really like to see what happens if you keep the nitrates close to zero for two weeks in that tank. If the eye stays the same, or worsens at all, then it might be worth it to consider treating. However, the only thing I can think of would be to treat for a bacteria with antibiotics . . . and I like to avoid antibiotics if it is at all possible to resolve a problem by improving the water.

Can you test your pH daily and let us know the results if they go below 6.6?

Do you think you will add the coral or dolomite soon?

t

P.S. Did the person say why the EasyBalance was bad? I have some ideas why it might not be ideal but not sure about bad so I would be interested to know what their reasons were for feeling that strongly.

Hey, you are welcome. It is fun to help in any way possible to try and sort things out.

Popeye can look just like the ring around the eye is extended although often it is accompanied by a bit of eye swelling but sometimes it is just the ring itself.

It is possible that it isn't popeye. The only real way to be sure would be for a picture but I have a feeling that might need to wait until the royalty departs fom their visit and you get a bit caught up on the work that buys the fishfood.

Yes, I agree that when I am learning on new subjects in fish info or whatever bits of info can stick in your mind but then you can't remember why they were important. lol

t

H m m m . . . I googled the Lifeguard product and it's active ingredient: 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone (I dare you to say that fast 10 times). lol

Being only a Mad Scientist, I checked online and apparently it is a chemical originally used to disinfect drinking water (but don't quote me on that as I just did a cursory search).

The ingredients in Fungus Cure are quite different: Active Ingredients: Nitrofurazone, furazolidone, potassium dichromate, methylene blue, acriflavine.

The product does warn about overdosing when adding it. The re-addition might be because some ingredients only remain active for a short period of time (like antibiotics) so perhaps that is the reason you have to keep adding them.

I wonder if you might want to first get the nitrates down to close to zero and the pH a bit higher by waterchanges and see if it clears right away. Rather than experimenting with the new med . . . what does everyone else think?

* Does the fuzz usually get worse quickly?

If it is true fungus, then the fish must have injured its mouth because true fungus only grows on dead tissue. It could also be flexibacter (a bacteria) which often shows on the mouth. Have you seen the slide show and article here and here?

t

Hi,

Sorry - I totally forgot to comment on the coral. The problem is that some coral cranks the pH higher and faster than others. So, it is safest to put a small amount in, then test the pH for a couple of days, then put more in. After that monitor daily because you don't want the coral to slowly start releasing calcium and have the pH climb without knowing it (testing will tell).

What are your current nitrite, nitrate, pH, and ammonia in the tank? Before any planned waterchanges. Just want to be sure we don't have a water problem because that often does lead to dropsy.

I am thinking it would be good to use an ER thread for the possibly ill goldie. Just to be safe. I just don't know if you should stop the Lifeguard after only a few doses. Normally, it is not good to stop some medications part way through but that is generally for antibiotics . . .

If you want, we could move this thread to ER and go from there? Would you like us to do that?

t