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help! sick black moor

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roktzar	help! sick black moor	Lead	[-]
Posts: 1 (06/24/09 18:00:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hi, having some problems with one of my fish He's a blck moor i've had for about 2 months. Ammonia: low Ammonia tester used (salicylate or Nessler-reagent based?): - Nitrite: low Nitrate: ? Are you testing with dipsticks?: no pH: 7.5 KH: ? Temperature: cold Heater: no Aeration: no, just a water pump Water change amount/frequency: change 30% every week Tank size/how long in operation: 3 months old 60 liter tank Filtration: not carbon Water additives/conditioners/pH adjusters: conditioner is called Prime, small amount of pH upper added a few days ago What, how much and how often are the fish/frogs fed: small amount twice daily. No leftovers Tank inhabitants (number, size and type of fish/frogs): 2 fantails, 1 comet, 1 black moor New additions/changes to the tank: recently added a small plant, no snails or anything else. Unusual findings on the fish/frog: bent back, swimming in spiral at times, a little bloated yet hasn't been eating alot lately, have tried feeding peas but isn't interested. Now moving very little and lying on side toward bottom of tank. Have noticed some tiny (maybe 1mm long max) white hair looking things on his tail, but doesn't look like ich at all. Unusual behavior: see above. Did have ich about month ago but was cleared using white spot eliminator. Medications/what has been tried or done do far: quarentined in clean water Summary of potential fish/frog stressors: only thing i can think of is that it has been cold lately, he had ich a month ago and the new plant. New fish added maybe 1 and 1/2 months ago with no problems. I hope this summary helps, my water quality is fine and i change it often. He is the only fish affected and doesn't seem to have any diseases i've looked at on the net. Doesn;t seem to fit ich or dropsy.... Help?
aquila		#1	[-]
Posts: 10425 (06/24/09 18:17:00) Administrator My marbles are in the tank! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hi, and welcome to FnF. Sorry to hear your moor isn't feeling well. What do you mean by "low" for ammonia and nitrite? These should be 0 ppm in a healthy, cycled tank. NitrAtes should be under 10 ppm. I suspect that water quality may be at play here. Likely, your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrAte are too high for your fish. Goldfish tanks often need 50% water changes weekly when properly stocked. As well, I'm sorry to break the news that your tank is overstocked. 60 litres = 15 gallons. Each goldfish needs around 10 gallons -- they're heavy ammonia producers, and should grow to 6-8 inches each (the fancy, globular goldies do). In the meantime, I recommend an emergency water change. Is there anything you can do in terms of a larger tank? Ammonia can cause burns, hemorrhages, laboured breathing, stunting of growth, and decreased immunity. Nitrites can do all this, too, but also can bind to the gills, decreasing the amount of dissolved oxygen the fish can get into their bloodstream. I think that the "white strings" you're seeing could be irritated slime coat, which can result from ammonia as well as external parasites (like velvet -- checking with a flashlight can help). How large is the quarantine tank? Were new fish quarantined prior to being added to the main tank? Prime is a very good water conditioner; we highly recommend it. Why the pH product? As well, here are our goldfish care sheet and faq. ~Ash
roktzar		#2	[-]
Posts: 2 (06/24/09 18:33:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Thanks for the quick reply aquila, By low i mean the ammonia and nitrite levels are at 0ppm. Nitrate i don't actually have a test for :-( so i can't give you those perameters. The goldfish in the 60L tank are all quite small and the filter system is cleaned regularly. The pH product was added because it was rather high (about due to a high normal tap water pH (about 7.5). The affected fish has been quarrentined in a small 5L tank for about a day now and i'll keep on top of water changes eveyday. How much water should i change under these conditions, i know i need to change it more when my fish are sick. He's still looking very sad at the bottom of the quarentine tank though. All other fish in the 60L tank are fine. Any ideas why his back would be bent and the slight bloating? Cheers.
tetralina3		#3	[-]
Posts: 15117 (06/25/09 03:48:01) Mad Scientist Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hi and welcome to the site. Ash has given some excellent advice. It is quite important to know the nitrate levels. Why? When a tank is highly stocked (or overstocked) the nitrate levels can rise quite high and the only thing that will remove them are waterchanges (live plants can consume some of them). * Can you describe the bent spine? The bloat and listlessness that you describe could be related to high nitrate levels over a long period of time and that is why it is really important for you to get a tester. with that level of waterchanges, stocking, and water volume it is very possible that the nitrate levels might have gotten quite high. I can recommend the Nutrafin nitrate tester or the API tester. You can also get dipsticks but those tend to be more expensive and less accurate. We can also advise you better about the waterchange recommendations once we know the nitrate levels (rises in nitrates are often a heads-up to do an extra waterchange in a schedule). * Could you pick up one of these nitrate testers and let us know the nitrate levels? * Do the white hair-like things move at all? Do they seem anchored into the skin? * Along the lines of Ash's question, can you clarify for me what your tapwater pH is (out of the tap)? Also, what was the tank pH before you added the pH product? The reason I ask this is I would like to see if you have any need for such a product. It is usually better to leave the pH as it is since adjusting pH can cause pH swings and stress for the fish. Once I know those answers I can advise you. * Have you ever had any ammonia or nitrites in the tank at all in the last month? t
aquila		#4	[-]
Posts: 10426 (06/25/09 18:02:08) Administrator My marbles are in the tank! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	As well, do you clean or change the filter media/floss? Bloating could be due to constipation, dropsy, or the fish being egg-bound. Constipation can arise easily in goldies. Most only need the amount of food equivalent to the size of one of their eyes (in 3-d) per day. If feeding flake or pellet foods, we suggest soaking for 5 minutes in dechlorinated/conditioned/tank water prior to feeding (so things puff up there, and not in the fish). I would recommend avoiding freeze-dried products. Veggies and frozen foods (ie. frozen bloodworms) are also great for them. The first line treatment for constipation is fasting. Constipation tends to make the fish swell more in the belly area. Dropsy (http://www.flippersandfins.net/dropsy.htm) is a term we use for the end-stage of many processes. It can be caused by organ failure, bacteria, viruses, fungi, etc. The fish are bloated all the way down their bodies, and scales often stick up. Female fish can appear bloated when egg-bound. Periodic white dot-like tubercles on the gill cover can help identify males. Bent spines are most often due to illness, although a combination of S-shaped spines, open sores, and rapid weight loss points more toward fish TB. ~Ash
roktzar		#5	[-]
Posts: 3 (07/05/09 20:59:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Thanks for the advice everyone, Unfortunently the affected fish passed away in quarrentine a few days ago. His symptoms looked alot like dropsy in the end. Maybe this was a result of an infection from ich a few weeks ago? That fish was the first infected and showed the worst symptoms. Could a chronic infection have caused this? As far as my tank is concerned, i have tested the nitrate levels and they are normal. The water pH comes out of the tap at around 7.5 and i clean the filter once a week when i do water changes. I am now doing larger water changes once a week and the new live plant in my tank is growing quickly so hopefully it will help to balance out any other problems. I feed my fish a mix of soaked goldfish flakes and shelled peas and keep a close eye on them for signs of bloating, but i feel this was not a problem for the black moor as he did not eat as much as the others. He never was a very actice fish so perhaps there was some underlying issue from the start... Thanks again for your help
tetralina3		#6	[-]
Posts: 15262 (07/06/09 03:22:17) Mad Scientist Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Sorry to hear that. Dropsy is more likely to be caused by poor water conditions that lead to a weakened system that can't fight off infection. It can be further complicated by a previous disease causing weakness. I think it is important to check a few things in your tank just to ensure everything is the best it can be and prevent any possible water condition issues. What is the number for the nitrates? Have you seen any positive results for ammonia? If yes, what number? How large are the waterchanges you are doing each week now? Please note that filters should only be cleaned when the filter flow slows a lot. Then, they should just be swished in some old tank water and/or scraped of gunk. You don't want to clean them too vigorously or too often or the biological bacteria in the filter will be lost. These biobugs are needed to eat the ammonia from the fish wastes. t

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