the dreaded beard algae

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think	the dreaded beard algae	Lead	[-]
Posts: 37 (06/25/09 14:18:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Tags : None Tank Gallons: 20 Depth: 12 inches of actual water depth. Tank depth is 15.5 Filter: 20-40 gallon aquatech HOB Current: yes but alot of dead zones Substrate and depth: 1-2 inches of plain aquarium gravel in the front of the tank. Rear of the tank has 4 inches behind an undergravel tunnel I built as the retaining wall. Plants: Red ludwigia, pennywort, sunset hygrophilia, java fern, plagiomnium affine, rottala, sword plants, java moss, xmas moss, flaming moss, annubias nana, watersprite, some type of crypt and cabomba. (i think thats it ) Co2? (y/n): no Ferts or chemicals (if any): I have undergravel flourite tabs, plant gro Stocking (fish,frogs): currently some Malaysian Trumpet Snails and pond snails. I will be buying a betta to put in it shortly hopefully! Lighting Brand and model: No idea ... Watts: 2 spiral 15 W equivalent to 60 watt compact fluorescent bulbs Kelvin: 6500k Photoperiod: 8 hrs Water parameters Ammonia: 0 Nitrate: max I allow is 10 GH: 230 KH: 72 PH: 7.8 How long has the tank been set up: 6 months Algae type: I have brown little balls which I thought was decaying plant matter but now I think are diatoms, I have beard algae on most stem plants looks like green fuzz and it's imposible to get off with a toothbrush. My swords are really bad covered in little hairs and chunky brown stuff. The glass does have some little strands of green in some area's. It got worse after I removed my betta and set him up in a quarantine tank. I wasn't keeping on top of bleach dipping or cliping off badly affected leaves and it's pretty bad now. New additions/changes to the tank: 2 rounds of tetracycline which really darkened the water. I also have a tendency to buy new plants often. Any other things of interest we might need to know? My betta got some type of sickness which lead to dropsy so I will be tearing down the entire tank and restarting from scratch I guess. Unless someone has a better idea cuz I really don't want to have to tear it all down. If I do have to restart from scratch I was planning on adding laterite to the substrate and was wondering what you guys think? And because a betta will be housed, I don't really want to get an algae eater, although I would like an SAE I hear they outgrow a 20 gallon and something bigger is out of the question as per my landlord :p
capturedbyrobots		#1	[-]
Posts: 3380 (06/27/09 15:06:58) Administrator The Heavy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Sorry, I didn't see this before. It sounds like you don't have enough nitrates, actually. With that amount of light, I would suggest having co2. Without Co2, you'll be battling algae all the time. Otherwise, I'd actually go down to 2x10W bulbs. Do the plants look stunted? Now, is it fuzz algae or beard algae? Most beard algae is actually black or brown. Fuzz algae is always green, and is loved by snails and otos. Pictures of the tank and said algae?
think		#2	[-]
Posts: 41 (06/27/09 16:32:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	I unfortunately did a bleach dip tonight on 90% of the plants that looked affected for a 1 min dip. I really want to try to get on track to get a new betta in there :P So I cannot get any pictures at the moment. As for colour of the algae it is green very thick looks like a beard but floats upwards towards the light. I tried whirling a toothbrush in it it takes some off but most stays stuck to the top of the plant leaves. This is happening on ludwigia repens and sunset hygro. Now on the swords is a different type of algae. It grows more of small strands about 1-3 mm in length like the size of planaria so you need to get up close to see them. Basically makes my plants look hairy. Then that started same strandy algae has creeped up on the tank glass. The sword has been sprouting new leaves once a week roughly. The annubias are turning yellow from the outside then it moves deeper into the leave then the leaf eventually dies. Everything else is doing pretty good. If I switch to 2 x10w bulbs, will all the plants I have still succeed? I know I have a horrible mixture of low light vs high light plants in my setup. I pick by looks more than by...light requirements. Now as for CO2 it scares me :P I am afraid for my betta!
capturedbyrobots		#3	[-]
Posts: 3382 (06/27/09 16:42:31) Administrator The Heavy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Doing DIY co2 won't be harmful (yeast/sugar) As for ther plants, that does not sound like beard algae, just sounds like fuzz. Here's another thing you can do, buy a bunch of floating plants and let them dim the tank somewhat from floating on the surface. My advice is to raise the light off the surface a bit too for now. Can you elevate the fixture off the tank by 6 inches or so? That will still give great light, but it won't be as intense. The only one that might suffer going down in wattage is the Sword, but I bet it will still be fine. Anubias requires very little light to thrive. Did you leave the rhizome out in the water column? Even my anubias which is covered in black beard algae and my massive java fern is doing great. (I need to do some serious maintenance on that tank. It's my only tank with algae....) I'm telling you, oto cats are the best for fuzz algae, if your betta will tolerate them. The fuzz can be controlled by less intense light with the same photoperiod. BTW, with this huge amount of fuzz you have, it's only a matter of time til it progresses and the dreaded BGA comes calling. That's how it always starts, first fuzz, then BGA. Let's get the fuzz figured out first so you don't have to go thru getting rid of BGA. Last Edited By: capturedbyrobots 06/27/09 16:47:10. Edited 1 times.
think		#4	[-]
Posts: 42 (06/27/09 19:02:45) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Well since I will be getting a new betta, I can place the oto cats in first then the betta and hopefully he won't be as territorial than adding oto's after the betta is established. What kind of oto's would be best or are they all okay? As for elevating the light, it is not really possible but I do have some lower wattage bulbs that I had been using in the 10 gallon so I could use those instead. I do currently have half the tank covered in thick floating watersprite and I had the lower light plants under that, and in the open area I had the higher light plants which all develloped the "fuzz" algae. The darker side has more of the brown balls of what i think is diatoms. I will look into the DIY co2...it still scares me :P Another thing since my water has very low kh and gh would I have to dose any ferts with the co2?
think		#5	[-]
Posts: 43 (06/28/09 05:50:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	I just read that oto's like to school...how many should I put into a 20 gallon tall with 1 male betta?
capturedbyrobots		#6	[-]
Posts: 3385 (06/28/09 09:14:00) Administrator The Heavy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	You could put about 3 otos max in a 20, just be SURE to quarantine them first.... Otos get stressed easily, and can develop ich when brought home from the store sometimes due to the stress. I always do at least 3 weeks QT with otos to be sure they don't bring ich into the tank. They will do a great job, so much so where you might have to offset their diet once they eat the algae all up. I have a strange oto, a Niger oto, he looks like a tiny pleco. He does a great job cleaning but standard otos do a good job as well. Standard water changes will provide what you need with co2, it wouldn't hurt to buffer the water if you're really low on the KH and GH. I would use a little Equlibrium to keep it all balanced if you're concerned.
think		#7	[-]
Posts: 45 (06/28/09 14:16:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Thank you so much I will take all your suggestions on board and I'll keep you updated on the progress!
Mattsmommy2		#8	[-]
Posts: 12791 (06/28/09 16:13:37) Administrator Fond of Fins Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hey Christine, Just a thought too... adding the otos may help to increase the nitrAtes a bit as well... (adding to the bioload). It's a rare occasion when we can recommend ADDING fish to a tank... more often than not... we have to recommend downsizing the inhabitants or upgrading the tank! Good luck!! Michele Last Edited By: Mattsmommy2 06/28/09 16:15:43. Edited 1 times.
pLaurent2007		#9	[-]
Posts: 3661 (06/29/09 06:33:34) Blue Eyed Beauty Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Otos usually arrive at pet stores in a state of serious starvation. They're not really that delicate, it's the handling they receive after capture that depletes them and causes them to die often. They need to be added to a very stable, mature tank with algae to get them feeding right away on food they know. IF you want a bigger, hardier algae eater, you could get an albino bristlenose instead. If you want otos, you could easily have half a dozen in a 20 gal. About the Siamese Algae eater: They are very difficult to find, and often petstores sell the Chinese Algae eaters or Flying Foxes instead and they all look similiar. Both become very aggressive and eat very little algae.
Mattsmommy2		#10	[-]
Posts: 12815 (06/29/09 16:21:59) Administrator Fond of Fins Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Thanks pL! Christine... she knows her fish... Michele
think		#11	[-]
Posts: 48 (06/29/09 16:57:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Oh I really wish I hadn't bleached dipped all the plants. The only algae thats left looks a bit on the white side so I'm pretty sure it will die. So I don't think I have much for oto's to feed on right now. Would algae waffers be something they would recognize? Do they eat decaying plant matter? I am not picky as to what kind of algae eater I get as long as its not an CAE ( i hear they get really aggressive with age and stop eating algae) and I know that SAE would have a black line from tip of nose to the very tip of the caudal. I also know they should have the 2 things at the tip of their nose pointing down. I haven't really checked around yet to see what my town offers. I just need something that will leave my betta alone and that my betta won't attack or harrass. I will check out my local pet stores in the next few days and see what I can find. Thanks again! And if you can think of any other types of fish that would eat fuzz algae or diatoms please feel free to name them and I can make a list and check out the local pet stores. (my town is rather hillbilly ish when it comes to aquarium stuff can't even find a gh/kh test kit in all the fish carrying shops /plant shops in town)
pLaurent2007		#12	[-]
Posts: 3666 (06/30/09 05:59:53) Blue Eyed Beauty Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	It's very hard to tell SAEs and CAEs apart, especially if they're young and if you dont' see both to compare. If you want to be sure you get the SAE you may need to order online. Petstores don't normally use scientific names.They use common ones, they vary from store to store and sometimes they even make up their own names!
Mattsmommy2		#13	[-]
Posts: 12827 (06/30/09 07:29:45) Administrator Fond of Fins Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	And some stores are notorious for wrongly identifying what they are selling. I like the otos idea or pL's idea of a bushy-nosed pleco for taking care of your algae. The pleco is big enough to hopefully not get picked on by the betta. Hopefully, Bullet is gentle enough to put up with either the otos or small pleco. Not sure you can find them in your area... or if your water is suitable... but nerite snails are very good at eating up almost all types of algae (except BGA). I have them and love having them... (and the bonus is that they stay small and don't proliferate!) I'm sure if you leave your tank lights on for 10+ hours per day... you'll have algae building up again in no time. Michele
pLaurent2007		#14	[-]
Posts: 3668 (06/30/09 16:15:51) Blue Eyed Beauty Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Yes, I forgot about the nerites! A handful of those should do the job. Nerites, bristlenose plecos and otos are the only smaller sized fish/snails I know of who avidly eat algae their whole lives and do not become aggressive to other fish. BNs will not harm even small fry. With the BNs, the trade-off is having to clean the tank more often as they are incredibly messy. Not only do they eat a lot and poop a LOT, but their food (zucchini etc) does block the filter, so you need to rinse that out more as well. I have to vacuum my 20 gal twice a week. I think it's well worth it, since my tank lights are often on up to 12 hours a day and I have have had NO algae since the day I got the BN. Having said all that, I'm not sure I would put a BN with a betta. BNs are well able to defend themselves with their spines, and a betta harassing one may get seriously hurt. Bettas may also attack or harass snails and otos, so it's good to have an alternative plan before bringing them home..all these options really depend on the temperament of the betta so it's trial and error!
Mattsmommy2		#15	[-]
Posts: 12834 (06/30/09 17:45:31) Administrator Fond of Fins Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	pL brings up some great points actually. Almost all of my bettas tolerate the snails... except for Jelly Bean. And I always thought he was a gentle fella... until I put 2 nerites in his tank. I saw a whole different side of him. He attacked them... trying to bite their shells. Not only didn't I want to see him harass the snails... but I was worried about the stress it was causing him... so I took them out. The trade off is that he has mainly silk plants, a couple of java ferns and his lights are only on for 3 hours a day to keep the algae at bay. So it is possible that your new guy will not tolerate sharing the tank. But you're going about it the right way by quarantining the possible tankmate(s) in the 20g first so they are not imposing on his territory, as he would be added afterwards. It's good that you have the other tank... Let us know what you decide to do... Michele
think		#16	[-]
Posts: 58 (07/04/09 11:43:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	So I managed to buy 3 oto's figure we'll start with that and in a couple of weeks I could add more if I need to. I don't want to start a new cycle by adding too many. They had romaine lettuce and zucchini in the tank at the store so I think they should be okay. I have also bought some algae waffers for them. I lowered the tank temp to 79 this should be okay for them and the betta?
Mattsmommy2		#17	[-]
Posts: 12900 (07/04/09 19:32:57) Administrator Fond of Fins Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hey... congrats on your new otos Christine! I'm not sure what the requirements are for otos... but 79F is perfect for bettas (I'm sure the otos will be ok with that too). I hope they stay healthy for you!! Keep us posted! Michele P.S. Aren't they cute??!!
think		#18	[-]
Posts: 59 (07/05/09 04:42:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hi everyone again Michele they were ugly at first to be honest and I didn't think they would be as small as they are. During the acclimitization I added an algae waffer for them to munch on before adding them to the tank. I was worried about the starvation. They acclimatized for an hour, then went their own seperate ways. Then late last night they were having a feast in my tank and going around in a little group always staying fairly close to each other. They are so ...skittish, I had to go online and watch some online video's to make sure their behaviour was normal. They have now grown on me and yes they are very cute! I am only fearful of the 50-80% dead loss I keep reading about when bringing them home. I need some help with feeding the oto's. Do you add zucchini daily, every 3 days or what. What other foods do you add other than zucchini, romaine, and spinach? How often does one feed algae waffers? I feel that when I remove an animal from it's natural environment it is up to me to recreate the best home I can while the animal is in my possession. Maybe even beat their natural environment and give them a small piece of heaven? Capturedbyrobots, Would I still need to raise the lights now that I have the oto's to consume the algae? How long should my photoperiod be? Do I need to change my current light wattage? Should I still start with co2 or leave it as it is for algae to grow for the oto's? I am all confused :P I feel so out of my element now, I was starting to completely understand betta's and now..it's trying to learn about oto's and how they will eventually live together in my underwater garden :P Any and all advice/help would be greately appreciated.
Mattsmommy2		#19	[-]
Posts: 12905 (07/05/09 07:51:41) Administrator Fond of Fins Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Hey Christine... your questions on otos may be better in the Freshwater Forum... we have so many members there that have kept otos... they can help you out greatly there! That was a good idea to check online to watch otos' behaviour! J... don't miss Christine's questions above... Michele
capturedbyrobots		#20	[-]
Posts: 3402 (07/08/09 15:13:22) Administrator The Heavy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Report Post	Yes, you most likely will still need to raise your lights at least a few inches, maybe 6 inches..... 8 hr photoperiod The goal of keeping a planted tank is to have no visible algae before any otos or snails. They will get their share of food easily. There are plenty of little algae pockets in a PT which they can eat. Get that tank balanced, and you'll be happier in the long run. In the future, you can always lower the lights again..... As for everything else, just get those lights raised up a bit, and let the otos do what they do, and see how it goes after a few weeks. Last Edited By: capturedbyrobots 07/08/09 15:17:00. Edited 2 times.

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